We are talking 'the Ultra-Violet Catastrophe.'
You've heard of that. Because it's on the news media everyday, right. And besides, just look at what Wikipedia says - Wikipedia, as you all must know, being 'supervised' and 'monitored' by the tyranny of 'evidence' and 'proof' of lots and lots of professional students on campuses everywhere, and University librarians with science qualifications, and of course, most certainly, actual credentialed academics:
They have the audacity to say 'law' and 'formula.' |
Problem (Wiki's heading, not mine):
'The ultraviolet catastrophe results from the equipartition theorem of classical statistical mechanics which states that all harmonic oscillator modes of a system at equilibrium have an average energy of kT.'
Solution (again, the Wiki):
'In 1900, Max Planck derived the correct form for the intensity spectral distribution function by making some strange (for the time) assumptions. In particular, Planck assumed that electromagnetic radiation can be emitted or absorbed only in discrete packets, called quanta, of energy. Placnk's assumptions led to the correct form of the spectral distribution functions.'
Now all of that including the diacriticals (brackets stuff) is quoted directly from Wikipedia.
Talk about going round and round in circles and saying nothing but pretentiously pretending that you had.
...theorem ...form ...assumption ...statistical.
All bullshit.
This is at least more honest, because the left curve says 'experimental data.' |
The 'ultra-violet catastrophe' refers to the fact that with a regular logarithmic increase in energy, there is a sine curve (appears 'going backwards,' as it were, because simply the 'x' axis line goes from high frequency to low frequencies) of increasing energy (and heightening frequencies), but around the green/blue wavelengths, the curve suddenly drops off into the ultra-violet spectra, where you would otherwise 'predict' that since the energy is still increasing, the curve should keep ascending.
So. Bullshit. No one has 'solved' anything. People have DESCRIBED the regularity of the packets of energy (we already knew that stuff except Planck - and I love Planck - pinned it down to a number: 'Planck's Constant) using statistical apparent data.
I say 'apparent' because, well - where did the energy go?
No one... ...has solved ...anything.
But we have BILLIONS of dollars wasted on wastrels at Universities, all claiming that they know something they don't know, and clamoring for attention all of the * time and wanting to be feted.
As intellectually 'special,' even 'geniuses.'
Oh yes, the hubris. The ego. The mindless, self-involved utter stupidity.
So - a hundred years have all passed since people actually went into widely-spread print 'noting' that um, er, maybe there was an area of IGNORANCE that required to be thought about.
And what have all the *'s come up with? 'We've solved it and here are some bullshit notations that you don't need to ask any questions about.' ...The first derivative (function) doesn't even work out!
Where are all the missing bits of energy?
Oh, just gone, gone somewhere, they were never there in the first place EVEN THOUGH THE POWER WAS BEING SYSTEMATICALLY INCREASED TO RENDER THE INCREASING FREQUENCIES - but don't worry about that FROM STATISTICAL DATA GATHERED we know they are not there now and you know what, the bits still left behind are also in average energy quanta packets...
Yeah? So what?
'Allah is the Allah and Allah is his name and Allah, well there is only one Allah.'
Okay so 'Allah is Allah and Allah is - there is only one Allah.'
And what am I supposed to take from this, exactly? Allah knows best, but 'SCI-entists' know betterer. Or gooderer, so that you get the point.
I mean for one thing, the 'problem' statement in Wikipedia cannot even be remotely true because 'classical physics' didn't know anything about Planck's Constant until Planck came up with it. Until then, there were still prevailing notions about energy 'trajectories' and certainly virtually everyone thought energy moved in a continuum, not in packets - that's after all, what made Planck's presentation so ground-breaking in the first place. So there could not have been a 'statistical theorem of equipartition' anything otherwise Planck wouldn't have had to invent it! My god. What utter bullshit you find in today's 'modern' 'science.'
Not to worry -, Planck, since he set out the discrete packets of energy (Planck's Constant), could now be pinned for providing the idiots and morons at Universities with a decisive calculus to count up the packets there in blue light, and in the ultra-violet light (and presumably send a monthly recording tally to the campus accountants, no doubt) and into the nothing light - but then alas, boys and girls, where still did the energy go, you know, all that stuff that is 'not there' compared to the AMOUNT OF ENERGY GOING IN??????!!!!!
Now any idiot, that comes up here now, with some trite nonsense claiming that this is what 'academics' say and that they have 'proof' and 'evidence' because their pygmy brains all held hands over it - and expects me to treat that with respect, can go and take a running jump in the lake.
Let me, however, give you a real quote from Herr Planck himself, about a certain moral thing:
"If you are able to gather today 30 such gentlemen, then tomorrow 150 others will come and speak against it, because they are eager to take over the positions of the others."
I'm not going to spell out any exact, precise 'answer' here to what happens to the energy - a lot of you guys and gals here are smart enough to figure most of it out yourself, or at least realize where the fruitful direction points.
The world is about political and social and economic power.
This world, is about political and social and economic power and nothing else at all.
It's 100% NOT about science and knowledge.
Functional science and knowledge belongs to that province where reside people far less venal than what today's crowd have all become.
And functional advanced science - is able to do things that appear indistinguishable from magic...
You are saying that planck's solution only describes a special case, and that given a (theoretically perfect) black body there are cases where one can get infinite radiation in the UV region?
ReplyDeleteSorry. not "can get" but is present "somewhere else."
DeleteThat's some crazy shit, for sure.
Well, two things - Planck never ever provided a 'solution;' he brilliantly described what the available data from the instrumentation of the day could provide. And, he gave conclusive evidence that energy is quantifiable in discrete units of measurement (which is in fact a distance; 6.626+ x 10 to the negative 34th power) which then gives us a description of energy. He linked the amount of energy a photon carries with the frequency of its electromagnetic wave: E = Planck's Constant x the Frequency. E = hf
ReplyDeleteBut we should stop saying 'solution.' It is a DESCRIPTION of available instrumentation sensed radiation data.
Planck describes the correct measurement format - he doesn't explain or show what the real energy is doing.
And the answer is very simple. And you can begin to comprehend it, by realizing that the sine curve is merely what you are line-drawing, if you take a pen, and rotate it from the horizontal (between two fingers in your hand) and trace what the top end tip of the pen is doing in space as you rotate it and move it along a forward axis...
:)
When you look at it from the side... It's a lying down 'S' curve, right?
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ReplyDeleteSorry, I've been playing with the Rayleigh-Jeans equation in a jupyter notebook all night and can't really see how rotation would explain where the extra energy is going, but I didn't really expect to see it! If it were a simple thing then people would have discovered how to power their water heaters with little black boxes with holes in them and laser pointers. or something.
ReplyDeleteHowever a little reading through other things I don't understand, about pomerons mainly, has me a little worried that our understanding could easily be a bit more advanced than is publicly acknowledged, and then the anxious concerns about how technology is being managed start to creep in.
Hold the pen in the middle of the pen between your two fingers, rotate the pen, not your arm. I guess this means you rotate your wrist to turn the pen. From where you are looking, this will have the pen's tip describe the outer edge of a circle. ...If you hold the pen back towards you a little, and move it forward while rotating it, from the side, this will show you a normal Sine Curve.
ReplyDeleteThe standard ultra-violet catastrophe curve, is just the Sine Curve (thus from the side-on view) of the rotating pen, as it were, going down a center line. This center line IS the 'x' axis, obviously. Now... ...what happens (to the curve) when you rotate the 'x' axis towards you so that the line is now a point that you are looking at.
ReplyDeleteSo facing "forward" x is my left-right, z my up-down, y forward-backward. I see that a sine curve is produced from motion of a point around a circle in xz plane plus displacement in y. I don't see the connection to the measured vs theoretical spectral radiance of a black body.
ReplyDeleteI keep thinking "well the sine curve represents the EM wave."
I mean, I understand the connection between harmonic motion and the circle. What next?
DeleteI mean it seems like you are saying "use sine to get the maxwell-boltzmann distribution from the rayleigh-jeans equation"
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DeleteFirstly, obviously, in current quantum mechanics (or maybe we should more accessibly term this - in the instance of the color spectrum photon energy curve - quantum optics) there is no such thing as 'Rayleigh-Jeans' because, as you can see from the Wikipedia entry (which is informative enough up to a point) and also from the first diagram above, Rayleigh-Jeans WAS the 'classical view' which didn't work in practice.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Rayleigh-Jeans, the optical (spectral) curve should ascend to output energy infinity - and it doesn't, hence the drop-off around ultra-violet, hence the term 'ultra-violet catastrophe.'
In all mathematics x is always the horizontal axis and y the vertical axis, so although I understand your meaning, you should always assign 'y' as the vertical axis. But in any event, from my reading of what you wrote, yep, you seem to be depicting it correctly. I would not term forward motion as 'displacement' though - because displacement is what happens to the 'area under the curve/s.' Forward motion really, is time and also speed.
The curve you can see in the first image in the article above, is clearly a two-dimensional figure - so, although you said 'I don't see the connection between the measured...'
Clearly though, you SHOULD be able to now see that what is being measured by the standard model, is, also, just the two-dimensional output and not the area under the real curve, which is very clearly three-dimensional with geometric WIDTH and acceleration (time/speed).
This business of a 'black body' is a bit misleading because we are not talking about say a 'black hole(!)' but just simply a mass or even photon source at CONCEPTUAL initial 'zero' (off state) ASSIGNED position (there are wavelengths lower than 'red' obviously).
So we are not talking about the spectral radiance of a black body, but in the case of the example in Wiki and in the image above, photon energy packets going from 'red' through the spectrum to 'ultra-violet.' Measured radiance (or radiation, anyway) is two-dimensional in the standard model - in the sense that it is only governing what the observed data is on the x-y axes. Whereas in the first place emf radiation is a di-pole toroid to begin with...
So let's re-state your comment: 'I don't see the connection to the measured vs the theoretical spectral radiance of coherent PHOTONIC PACKETS IN A CONDITION OF RISING ENERGY (it's not by this time a 'black body,' is it?) 'Black body' was it's 'start' state on the axes being observed and graphed.
So... ...you don't see the connection between a two-dimensional graphing of data, and the clearly cubic area under the ACTUAL four dimensional curve. And why is that?
Where, in any equation, formula, or theory that you know of, is the cubic area of energy discussed... ...at all?
So, you can't see the connection...
Hmn.
Okay! Back on track. It will take me time to process what you've written above, and I'll let you know if I get snowed to the point I can't continue. For a brief terrifying moment you sounded like a con artist.
ReplyDelete'Black body' simply means assigned as the initial 'zero-state' condition without any observable radiant photon energy at the start of the up-ward rising curve - although in reality, there are lots of spectral states beneath 'red.' The physics meaning in the theory is two-fold, one simply (as I just said above) the ASSIGNED START POINT STATE, and some actual ABSOLUTE 'zero-energy' state, meaning that the WHOLE curve is coherent and consistent in every part to whatever theory or law eventually correctly describes or governs what is going on.
ReplyDeleteRayleigh-Jeans is obviously, NOT consistent at the 'ultra-violet catastophe' section. It's actually not even exactly in keeping with observed data of light frequencies across the color spectrum - as you can see from the graphs above.
As for your wording of 'displacement' for the forward motion axis, this is not the standard use of the word 'displacement' in physics, which means a substitution of mass by a vector force, although, in a manner speaking, what you are saying is 'forward movement in a straight line is the displacement of a thing at an immediate prior PLACE by its movement to the immediate next place along the line in a positive direction.' Which kind of works.
So, to summarize, what's the VOLUME of energy, what's the cubic area of energy, especially since we are talking EMF.
Where's the equation for that? And where is it depicted on these famous graphs we are being shown.
And those are not anything but rhetorical questions.
You know, the amazing thing about you, KP, is you feel very free to swing around pretty tendentious and downright abusive remarks at people, and it is very clear that you are in the first place rushing off to Google Search and even the pathetic Wikipedia to get a line on what is being talked about.
ReplyDeleteHow many times already is it going to be necessary to make this very light 'suggestion' to you, that 'probability' is not a good basis for a Universal Principle of Physics. You threw around 'Maxwell-Boltzman' and MB is a probability distribution use for DESCRIBING, it is NOT an underlying physics law or principle of FUNCTION.
Can you like, quit with this thinking that you are going to stay commenting here, if you insist on using fairly crude swipes - to achieve what exactly? What is the actual purpose for that?
Is that some sort of bad habit you have picked up over the years?
You know, you don't even know that 'y' is ALWAYS the vertical axis...
ReplyDeleteUnbelievable. Seriously, I think you'd better come up with something convincing here or else I will think I must have 'snowed' you. Jesus H. Muhammad. Or should I say 'Professor Jesus H. Muhammad.'
ReplyDeleteHold on. Am visiting with friends for a few hours.
DeleteI hope they are good solid professional physicists who will know who 'the Hoss' is... : )
DeleteWaiting. Waiting... LOL
Well I tried getting an engineer who works on electron microscopes and is fluent with the math involved, but he was all "day off here. waste of time."
ReplyDeleteSo I'm confused because what you refer to as "upward rising curve" is in my understanding a collection of curves indexed by temperature, and that is the equilibrium temperature of the body itself. So no flow of kinetic energy in or out of box. The "body" itself emits radiation but is kinetically isolated from its environment. In order to maintain equilibrium it must also absorb radiation from some source. The equipartition theorem tries to explain what goes on kinetically "inside" the body, and can be approached by modeling the body as a hole in one surface of a cube.
What I really want to do is read up a bit and figure out how to get Rayleigh-Jeans from Equipartition principle. That is step 1 for me at least. My sources for answering physics question are both wikipedia initially and Feynman's lectures for details and a better conceptual foundation.
What you say about black body as initial condition is confusing, because it sounds like you are saying "we want to consider what happens when the system goes out of equilibrium" but then that's not UV catastrophe. I could be confused of course. Perhaps you have better things to do than walk me through all this.
Okay... Just bear in mind, I never invented the phrase 'the Ultra-Violet Catastrophe,' did I...
ReplyDeleteAnything to do with the Rayleigh-Jeans 'law' being able to do anything here in connection to the Rayleigh-Jeans CATASTROPHE (also, again, Wikipedia's words, not mine) is impossible because, as Wiki points out, the prediction of R-J doesn't bear out in observed reality.
And btw, perhaps you can point me to any SOURCE literature anywhere in the world at any time, that says R-J discovered 'equipartition.'
'Black body' is in physics, an idea that (well, it's possibly two DIFFERENT but related things, depending on what way people want to use the phrase) a body that absorbs ALL light energy (and therefore reflects none OFF ITS SURFACE) 'IF' it ever gives off light, must then do so from energy it is generating from within, either what has ABSORBED or what it somehow just 'initiates'.
A second possible use of the phrase means where the 'zero' point was ASSIGNED on an x-y frame; hence 'black (assigned or actual zero energy state) body at rest.'
Further, I am not saying anything about 'equilibrium' at all and I never have here. I am simply noting the FACT, that a body that absorbs all energy and reflects none at its surface, when you apply a rising amount at a consistent rate, TO IT, goes through the energy states starting from red on the visible spectrum (so this is just exactly what you are seeing in the Wiki graph, I am not making anything up here or even adding anything to what is there in their article) all the way to ultra-violet and beyond, BUT at green/blue, the frequencies all drop markedly DOWN, where the Rayleigh-Jeans curve predicted they would keep going UP (hence 'catastrophe' for the theory/law and its prediction).
ALL I AM ASKING - not STATING; asking - is, where did the energy (still rising, still absorbed and NOT reflected) go to?
Do you know the answer to that?
Does your friend the engineer know?
Does Wikipedia know?
Planck and Einstein never say, because they 'just' (mind you, it is a BIG 'just') DESCRIBE correctly what the OBSERVED radiation is.
So since you keep saying that I am confusing you - are you completely clear with what Wikipedia says, because if you are, and you think they have explained where the energy went, perhaps you can explain it to me then, and also, pick up maybe the Humboldt Prize along the way.
Energy goes in, it comes out as light frequency, and then, although it still goes in and at continuously higher rates, some of it 'disappears' and the light frequencies (and intensities) don't keep rising... How come? This IS the 'ultra-violet catastrophe!'
Where has the energy gone? The question remains. Where did it go?
Since, apparently, I confuse you, but no doubt the idol you bow down to Wikipedia does not - perhaps you can explain to me and every other idiot still bothering to read our silliness - what Wikipedia has to say about where the energy went?
Now... what we are doing IS silliness. Until some genius engineer prolly like your mate, who will no doubt NEVER confuse you and is, well, a genius with appropriate credentials, goes ahead and smashes protons together at super-high ENERGY and then, since HE knows what happens to all the energy released after the U-V Catastrophe point - perhaps he can at least do it at your house.
And you can let him, right? No problem there for you.
RIGHT?
So the theory says that the energy absorbed by the non=reflective body raises its temperature and at the same time is re-emitted in some other spectrum, because of the motion of its molecules according to the kinetic theory. Energy is absorbed, molecules start to vibrate. Molecules are electrically polar and hence when vibrating there will be an electro-magnetic field. Radiant energy is emitted.
ReplyDeleteSo right away you ask "well what about a thing made of non-polar molecules?" Well what would those be? And you can find just that question being asked in the physics forums, and the answer seems to be that even with hydrogen gas the electrical charges don't ever exactly cancel each other out.
It's fascinating that such a simple theory has all these really complicated implications.
Thermodynamics says the body in isolation will emit as much energy as you put in. In order to do that there must be some heat created "inside" the body. What I want to learn about is how you get from the kinetic theory and equipartition to the boltzman distribution. The fact that it doesn't depend on the material the "body" is made of is interesting to me. The fact that a hole in a box can be made to approximate a "black body" through some theoretical tricks of thermodynamics made me think that this would be a sensible place to look if you wanted to find something hidden. However obviously that sort of low lying fruit has already been well picked over by the smart people, and would have been mined already.
I thought you were saying that the ET aliens intended to say that the rayleigh-jeans equation is technically correct if you account for energy contained in the system in some heretofore unknown form. I didn't think you meant to say "infinite" energy, because of the impossibility of having a perfect "black body" but just that there could be much more energy available than being put in. That seems to be what the ET alien people claim about their technology, that it confounds our current understanding of how things work. So I did a quick lookup of short wavelength radiation and learned some really unpleasant things and thought about what it might mean if we lived in some universe where people could easily create some catastrophic event, tinkering around down in the basement. We'd probably not be here for long if that was the case.
Boy, and here I was thinking all this time that you were, um, 'a little slow...' Although I am no genius and cannot answer your questions in your first paragraphs above, at least not to your satisfaction at this present time, you are quite correct in your final paragraph there. Frankly, I like this version of 'kp' much better than the other one and I wonder if I am even responding to the same person now!! Rayleigh-Jeans IS technically correct very certainly, and will always remain so unless and until some 'new' explanation grabs the attention of the minds of the credulous humans who all fawn all over every latest pop identity in 'science;' and it never will be incorrect because no such 'new' hypothesis is possible IN FACT although anything is possible in the media.
ReplyDeleteAnd just so as you have the proposition fully framed from what I have been saying, never mind 'their' technology. Dr Salvatore C. Pais is a human last time I heard, and it's HIS technology that has patents both granted and some just 'lodged' to do with 'spacetime modification weapons.' And he works for the US Military. OFFICIALLY.
You are further, ABSOLUTELY 'on the money' when you say there is stuff we are not being told in the public sphere, and that we could probably do with knowing.
I hardly recognize this tone of yours as even 'kp.' LOL What happened?
Geck. This Salvatore Pais seems like the real deal. Well holy fuck.
ReplyDeleteSo let's talk about that "neutrino matrix" and the human brain. I got nothing, of course...
ReplyDeleteSo you got this idea from the ET alien you hang out with? They told you to think about the planck-einstein stuff themselves?
ReplyDelete